In response to shared blacklists for site submissions from www.adultnetsurprise.com

"It's a form of dishonesty on the web that is, in my opinion, as low as, if not lower, than spamming."

Good night shift thread. I like what you are doing with this every night. It's business-oriented and useful. Keep this up.

Now here's my take on this blacklist thing -- today. I say today because as time has gone by my opinion has changed a little bit.

We've talked about this in depth on prior Script School radio shows. We kicked it around in fact when Greenguy and Tommy stopped by to guest host Script School last year. I presented some of the arguments that webmasters had and there were some very good answers on the subject.

I should state up front that I don't submit to these type of sites any more, it's been like at least 2 years since I've submitted to any link list, tgp, etc, so that puts me out of the game (but does remove most any bias I would have as well). These days I'm more like the pitching coach then one of the people on the field, so keep that in mind with my commentary that follows.

However, I used to run several link lists (I still have one very small and badly in need of updates site), tgp and picpost and I see the owner/operator side of that versus the submitting webmaster. I also created a link list script that many link list operators use and they keep me in the loop on the state of things happening.

The abuse has become so rampant with all the auto submitters and through some technology means this has been thwarted but the malicious code & bot writers are always looking for a new edge.

Bottom line: there has to be some system that is used to stop the dishonesty from the majority of submissions. It doesn't mean the majority of the submissions from folks here, but the majority of the submissions that come in -- at least to many of the major sites -- are tainted from what I'm hearing.

I would suggest perhaps something done that is similar to the spam blacklists.

If your domain or host ends up in some of those black holes (and hopefully it never does), it is my understanding that it is not that easy to get removed, so I don't/won't really symphathize (sorry) with the concept that the appeals process should be all that easy once someone has been blacklisted

With that said, I do agree, however, that it should be somewhat severe action to get on the blacklist.

With spam, it's not just "one email" that gets people in trouble. And it shouldn't be just one (ok, well I could groove with there being no) 404 that gets webmasters blacklisted. Regardless of what hosts advertise (and Cyberwurx doesn't do this btw) there is no such thing as 100% uptime.

Every good host upgrades equipment and no server runs forever without reboots ... so it is a total lie to advertise 100% uptime. Any host that does should be an immediate red flag to get out with your pocketbook in tact.

Now as for those who redirect or removed links on submitted sites? Those bastards deserve to be banned! There is no good reason to consciously and fail to notify about removing someone's link that is sending you traffic if you made the promise/agreement that you would keep it up there.

Maybe you get a 1 time rookie mulligan, but beyond that, no way!

I've had this happen to me, you've had it happen to you; it's bullshit. It's a form of dishonesty on the web that is, in my opinion, as low as, if not lower, than spamming.

I like what you said security_man about maybe the shared blacklist being the first version. That's what I think it was/is and I'm sure the next version will be much better and incorporate some of the things that are being discussed in this thread.

I do also think that anybody with a gripe can go to GG&Jim's board and tell it to the horse's mouth, so to speak, if there are issues with the system. So it isn't like webmasters are totally at the mercy of an appeals form and nothing else.

I do realize that a lot of times in the past they say to just fill out the form when webmasters post complaining about being blacklisted, but they have to have some sort of tracking system to keep it straight.

It's not as simple an issue as it seems, but by webmasters talking about it I'm sure some reasonable upgrade or series of solutions can make it better.

Again, good thread.

Link list rules getting out of hand? from www.adultnetsurprise.com

"Politics can really mess with getting things done in business."

I've read over this entire thread and while I understand both sides of this situation, I think that once a link list reaches a certain size and traffic flow that they can rely on their own listings (assuming the LL owner is still building) and they seem to see accepting free sites from third parties as more of a service to webmasters than a necessity for their survival in the biz.

If one had at least 1000 free sites, 3 dedicated servers (3 different Class C), at least 100 unique IPs, at least 100 domains, and built 5 new free sites a week, one could make a compelling argument that along with sponsor galleries he/she would need few to none third party submissions.

Tommy and Greenguy were both on the Script School radio show earlier in 2002 (show #98, May 17, 2002) and Tommy said that some days he received in excess of 1700 submissions!

A little mathematics here: that's more than 1 submission a minute, every minute of the day!

They also suggested that if the quality of the submissions (overall) didn't improve, then they could forsee that someday Link List Owners would start charging for the service (similar to search engine listing fees).

If you ask them how much BS that they have to subject themselves to, just to get to the cream of the crop (or at least the people who follow 75% or more of their rules), they'll tell you it is a very high percentage -- and this is even with their blacklists, "word" scripts, etc.

I bet folks like MrMaryLou who do reviewing on a consistent basis, or those who run their own link lists here can chime in on how much it sucks being on the receiving end trying to wade through the slush pile to find good links from bad.

I am not suggesting that anybody in this thread ignores the rules and/or does underhanded or unethical things with their submissions, but the reality is the larger something becomes the more it becomes a numbers game and less personality.

Ask anybody who ever liked the corner restaurant until it became a food "chain".

Let me suggest to all of you that have had trouble with a particular link list (and you want to submit to that site) that you might try this tact:

Contact (preferably in person at a convention like Internext, next an IRC / ICQ contact and lastly by email) the webmaster/webmistress of the link list personally and explain that you'd like to submit to their site and you build clean sites but that you find their rules are somewhat restrictive. Then explain what specific rules you have difficulty complying with and why.

Perhaps there is some backdoor way to submit to them? Maybe a code word and you folks can do some mutually beneficial business? If they refuse or ignore your request, then it certainly didn't hurt to ask and you can scratch that link list off your list. It's not like you are whining about their rules then, it is that you want to do business with them but you would like to *negotiate* the terms.

These conventions leave great opportunities to go directly to the horses mouths, so to speak, and to network with others.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
If I was out there building right now, I'd contact a couple dozen webmasters to work closely with in trading traffic. Webmasters with common goals, beliefs and ethics as mine. Webmasters/webmistresses that I felt I could trust until they proved to me otherwise.

Also, I would build relevant sites in my own hub so that I attracted search engines using techniques like linkster and others have suggested.

With these practices in check, one could then concentrate on building and making his/her sites the best they can be (from a sales/marketing point of view) rather then wondering if his/her sites will be rejected or if he'll be blacklisted, etc.

Politics can really mess with getting things done in business.

The importance of daily goals in business from www.adultnetsurprise.com

"The heat will make you better -- or at the very least open your eyes to some places that need work in your kitchen"

I think the old cliche, you can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink holds great truth in many things in business and unfortunately, for many people.

It's probably the leading reason the failure rate is so high.

When I first got into the adult web business, which was late 1996 (I started in mainstream on the web in 1995) -- there weren't tutorials and classes and radio shows and an assortment of helpful messageboards and webmaster resources like there are now.

I believe it was 1998 when Sharky Live came out and 1999 when Dokk first released Albumside. I was there for the first show of Albumside and had previously attended many of the Sharky Live shows. I was even a guest on one of them.

Generally speaking, the sponsors didn't give you content or hosting or make galleries for you or give you 1/100th of the support that is out there and available these days. The cost of hosting was higher than it is today. The list goes on and on.

So for those that tell you or give you the impression that it was all roses "back then" they might be forgetting or embellishing on some of the realities of those days. At least I didn't see it that way.

From my perspective it was webmasters/webmistresses jockeying around trying to figure out what worked and what didn't work for their sites/businesses. We didn't have the saturation issues that exist today, sure, but then there are super micro niches that are coming out fresh today so you can't say there's no ground left to be broken.

Today I look around at the wealth of info that is out there and I wonder if maybe there is such a thing as too much info because webmasters seem, generally speaking (obviously there are exceptions), to be picking at it here and there. There are a few folks who rise above the rest and honestly and earnestly work the info and tools, but very few IMO.

I'd be willing to bet that those few people will be the same people I'll still see 6 years from this post.

So if you are just starting out, or been doing this 6-12 months and need a motivational kick in the hiney; if you want to get ahead in any business, make better than a liveable income, and not just the adult business, you have to take advantage of the wealth of information and tools that are put there for your use and discover what works for you in the business/niche you are specializing in.

Specializing in everything is a huge mistake, so decide upon a couple of different areas/niches, sharpen the stone, and become the best that you can be at these chosen niches/areas.

Just try and use the tools out there, take the courses, attend the radio shows, and put the information to use and determine what can make you more $$$.

If the info doesn't work for your biz then you can pipe up and say, "I tried that, but it didn't work for me" -- and you might be surprised that there could be people who put out the info and will try and help you figure out why.

I've been living off of commission-only income from sales since 1994 when I started my insurance business cold. I didn't know how to sell anything (I didn't know anything about insurance except that I had to have it for my car to be legal), had no prior sales training, had zero clients, I didn't even realize I needed a will. I'd been in the restaurant business prior to that and the only thing I knew was management and food and customer service. My wife thought I was crazy to take such a gamble (she still does some days, but then that is another story lol).

But I discovered that those before me in that particular business had paved the way with how to be a salesperson. They had books, audio tapes, and training guides and told me if I called X number of people X number of people would talk to me and X number of people would want to see me and X number of people that I saw would buy something from me. And if I became a good salesperson I could improve the numbers.

I did what they told me -- in some cases precisely what they told me -- and lo and behold I discovered that more often than not they were right!

(sound like clickthrus, conversions and marketing in general?)

I posted a challenge here a while back for someone, anyone, to post at the audioboard every day what his/her short term daily goals were for that day and at the end of that day post again if those goals were accomplished. Result?

Nobody responded to that thread and nobody responded to that challenge.

So I inferred that:
1) nobody was interested or
2) nobody saw any practical use in that suggestion or
3) nobody read what I posted that closely (it is possible with some of my novel-length posts, I suppose)
4) other (what have I left out?)

I'm hoping it was #3 and thus am offering this challenge one more time.

You see, I was offered a similar challenge in 1994 at one of my first ever sales meetings. Naturally it wasn't for me to post to the Adult NetSurprise audioboard. No, it was to write in my daytimer 1-3 things I was going to do to better my business and at the end of that day write if I got them done -- and why I didn't.

Sure, I thought it was silly, stupid and saw no use in the exercise -- but I still tried it out anyway and what I discovered helped me improve my sales activity!

Now certainly someone that read my post a few days ago has short term, daily goals (and has a microphone too)?

Try my challenge for 2 weeks (a mere 14 working days) and see if it doesn't make you focus on what you do a little better every day. See if it doesn't maybe cut some fat (non-productive time) out of your work schedule.

See if it doesn't make you more productive in the time you are working because you won't want to come back at the end of the day and make excuses why you didn't get done what you wanted to do for that specific day (I didn't in 1994).

You'll never know until you try, and unless you try you can't say "er, that won't help my business." That's just too easy to do.

How do you really know that it won't help you until you try?

You have three logical choices after reading this post:

1. blow it off.
2. decide to try it out and start doing it.
3. procrastinate, or think about doing it, but most likely reverting to #1.

Sure #1 is going to be the most popular, I realize this in advance because out of 10 salespeople sitting at the table with me only 2 of us did that "recommended exercise" in 1994. Guess how many of us are still in the same business today?

Yup, the 2 who did that exercise.

So, you can make a plan that tomorrow starts a brand new day for your biz and you're going to try and make 1-3 daily goals and hold yourself accountable for those goals every day for 14 working days. Put your ass to the fire a bit.

The heat will make you better -- or at the very least open your eyes to some places that need work in your kitchen.

Time for 28 audio posts (2 per day x 14 working days x 1 min max each) = 28 minutes.

Try it and tell me in 14 working days -- if you can do this consistently in a row -- that it absolutely didn't help you in any way whatsoever.

After all, how many of you do anything consistently for 14 working days in your business?

What do newbies bring to the table? from www.adultnetsurprise.com

"Newbies for me, anyway, are a source of inspiration and excitement and energy in getting to that next level"

Thank you for the clarification, you are correct, I did paraphrase what you said in my last post (and admittedly that was intentional) I realize you were asking a question, and I think it was a pretty good one, so you motivated me out of the mines for a few to toss the proverbial pebble around.

Good questions and/or discussions with intelligent particpants tend to bring me out of the mines.

But now I'm intriqued by another quote of yours: "I don't make a dime off of newbies"

Well directly speaking perhaps not, but indirectly, yes, you do. Newbies generate new customers to the biz. I'm not saying you don't also (and of course you generate more), but I am saying that, generally speaking, the more people driving customers downtown, the better for every shopkeeper

My original point was: bring the newbies on, we need them. Newbies tend to bring in greater quantity: excitement, passion, and new activity.

I'm not suggesting that every webmaster that's been around awhile (myself included) are in the decay mode. I am saying that I've personally found comfort zones can be very problematic and all too easy to fall into. Haven't you?

It's like one wakes up and is making a certain income level and sometimes it's very difficult to motivate oneself to get to the next level. Those who have been in business awhile understand exactly what I'm talking about.

Newbies for me, anyway, are a source of inspiration and excitement and energy in getting to that next level. For without their positive energy level around and abounding (which for the most part I think is positive energy), I'd probably be a helluva lot lazier lol. And laziness, decay, hell, they are one and the same.

So yes, I guess this is 'exploitation' of sorts. Newbies exploit those with more knowledge, and those with more knowledge exploit them for energy.

I don't see this exchange as a negative. Others might. I certainly don't think webmaster resources (ok, well, *certain* webmaster resource places that is lol) are the equivalent of nike sweat shops lol

Certainly, newbies can make it without webmaster resources or places that help them get the knowledge (most of which comes at no out of pocket cost to them, btw), but newbies have a different problem today that didn't exist when information was not as plentiful: separating the wheat from the chaff.

And my goodness there is a lot of info out there now!

AN alone has 3500+ pages worth of information, not counting the many, many thousands of posts and hundreds of articles.

I've had some wise and very successful business people drop some quotes on me and this is one I've always remembered (even when my wallet was being adversely affected):

Competition breeds excellence.

Should newbies be told not to get into the biz? from www.adultnetsurprise.com

"I understand what you are saying in that some of the old marketing paths are well beaten, but nobody will convince me that there aren't still plenty of new paths to blaze"

>> We gotta start telling newbies, "this is a bad time to get into the biz...". I don't think we are doing them any favors by encouraging them. It may seem cruel but isn't it also true? >>

Sorry, I disagree

I think any business that doesn't seek to bring in new blood begins to decay. New people bring in ideas and enthusiasm where experienced folks tend to get set into their ways of doing things. Some experienced folks will ride their model into the grave, because what worked yesterday should work today, right?

Wrong.

Getting set and/or getting comfortable no matter how good one's system is leads to decay.

My business plan last year isn't the same this year and it was different from the year before. Though SirMoby didn't say it, I'm sure he has moved the chains a considerable amount over the last year, experimenting and finding out what worked and what didn't work for his business.

Those who made more money online in 2001 than in 2000 likely did the same thing

I understand what you are saying in that some of the old marketing paths are well beaten, but nobody will convince me that there aren't still plenty of new paths to blaze.

People with resources, creativity, drive and passion will make it it any business given enough time.

Time is the one thing that we should be warning newbies about. Be ready to pay the price and do the time. Don't expect to throw up a banner farm and make coin like you once could, those days indeed are gone.

But warning newbies away from the biz altogether?

No way.

Sent sponsor 250 hits, only 10 unique showing from boards.theadultwebmaster.com

"One important thing to remember in this biz is that you can't eat clicks, so you should go with whatever sponsor that converts to $$sales$$ best"

First of all there is a different between raw and unique and it also sounds like your sponsor isn't counting first page hits.

Perhaps they only count hits to the join page? And "unique" hits to the join page will even make the numbers appear worse to you when you are looking at "raw" in your stats.

One important thing to remember in this biz is that you can't eat clicks, so you should go with whatever sponsor that converts to $$sales$$ best.

If you sent a sponsor 500 raw clicks and they only count 20 but this generates a sale then you are converting at 1:500 raw which in today's environment is good.

You may see some say they are converting at 1:20 (which in the example I gave above for you would be true) but the actual conversion amount (to me anyway) is how much you send out versus how much $$ you make. Nobody converts *sales* at 1:20 raw or everybody would be signed up under them.

Also no two sponsors or programs count the same, so the number you send out will always be different than the number you get back in the sponsor stats. You might check out http://www.thestatistician.com/ which compares numbers sent out versus reported to a wide variety of sponsors.

And then there are technology reasons why click counts can differ, but I've left you with enough info for now ... there are lots of variables to your question, is the important point.

In response to helpful tips for aspiring adult webmasters from pornresource.com

"Lots of great information offered at these boards for new and seasoned webmasters alike"

Reading the excellent porn resource guides for your area of interest is a good starting point. They cover a wide range of niches and are laid out very nicely. The PR crew just updated the main page too and you can check the guides out by looking along the left hand column here: http://www.pornresource.com/

Also I'd recommend that you start posting at the various newbieboards like:
http://www.newbiewebmasters.com/

http://www.adultnetsurprise.com/multiforum/newbieboard/
http://www.tomsnewbiebooster.com/
http://www.netpond.com/neoboard/
http://www.ynotmasters.com/chat/chat.cgi?T=Newbie

Lots of great information offered at these boards for new and seasoned webmasters alike ;)